Relationship Anarchy: Fake it til' you make it

"Fake it till you make it" or "be it till you become it"? We're breaking down Principle 6 of the Relationship Anarchy Manifesto and answering your live questions on vulnerability, love, and attraction.

Books mentioned: The Politics of Trauma by Staci K. Haines, The A-Z of Gender and Sexuality by Morgan Lev Edward Holleb

Work with Ro: I work with people who want to explore the patterns, relationships, and internal narratives that shape their lives - whether they’re looking for a focused piece of work or a longer process of change. My practice blends Transactional Analysis psychotherapy with integrative coaching, leaving room for both emotional depth and practical clarity. Get in touch via www.romoed.com.

Work with E: Already trained in working with queer and non-monogamous folks? LMBA helps coaches and healers grow a private practice that feels authentic and aligned. Blending inner work on your own nervous system and values with the practical business skills to build your client base. If you're ready to help more people who need exactly what you offer, enroll now at lovemasterycert.com. Next cohort starts September 2nd, 202

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Ro: Because we're in charge. No one's coming to fix it. If we don't change, our relationships will suffer, and that's on us. So I don't say that. I don't know if that came across scary. I felt a little bit like, ooh, is that gonna come across mean?

But I hope it comes across more empowering. You're in charge. You can make it good as much as you can make it shit.

you know? Welcome to All the Love, the podcast where we deep dive into all things queer and non-monogamous relationships. 

We're E and Ro, longtime practitioners in coaching, therapy, and education, with a focus on supporting humans in said relationships. 

Elizabeth: Every quarter, we pick a theme and host a series of live podcast recordings.

Ro: And here's one we made earlier. 

Elizabeth: Hope that it speaks to you. 

All the love. 

Ro: All the love. 

Elizabeth: From E, that's me. 

Ro: And Ro, that's me. Okay, cute.

Elizabeth: Hello, my name is Elizabeth Cunningham.

I have been working in the field of gender, sexuality, and relationships since 2008. My background is working with a domestic violence center, so I used to do community education and outreach about what is domestic violence, how does intersectionality play in domestic violence. I talked to people ages five to 85.

Also, a fun fact that I haven't mentioned on here is that I created the programs for young people and teens, and I also started the LGBTQA+ charter at that specific domestic violence center. So that was also really cool as well. But I determined that I wanted to switch my focus to not just helping people get out of unhealthy or abusive relationships, but rather helping people understand, recognize, and get into healthy relationships.

I chose transformational life coaching as my path. I've been doing this work as a transformational life coach since 2016.

I started my own practice in 2017. I work primarily with polyamorous folks and queer folks. Although, I feel like, when I started, it was more polyamorous, and now it feels more queer, which I'm totally cool with. I also identify as polyamorous and queer. I am the L in the LGBTQIA+.

And yeah, I've been out as polyamorous since 2010. I've been out as queer since 2019, and I've been out as a lesbian since 2023. 

Ro: And breathe.

Elizabeth: Ahh 

Ro: Great lung capacity. 

Elizabeth: Whoa. And also, where I'm at right now, it is so hot. I am sweating profusely.

Ro: Where I am, it is cold, and I am a little shivery, and I can feel my shoulders going up and up, so I will periodically remind myself to sit properly.

Did I interrupt you in doing your intro or,

Elizabeth: No, I think I need to be interrupted. I've moved on to silliness, so now we should move on to your introduction. 

Ro: Sure. So hello, everyone. My name's Ro Moëd. I am a writer, I'm a relationship coach, and I'm a transactional analysis psychotherapist in training, and I work as a coach.

I have my own private practice as a therapist working with individuals and couples. I specialize in working with polyamorous people and relationship anarchists, and that also has tended to mean that I come across a lot of clients who are queer, who are neurodivergent, who are kinky, who are gender diverse, so a lot of overlap between those various labels I have found in my practices.

In terms of my background, I wasn't always a coach. That change happened around five years ago in my life, and I, before that, was an educator. I was in adult education for around 10 years and moved into teacher training. So I really went hard on teaching and the science of teaching. And so I find it really interesting to marry all of those things together, my interest in relationships, my desire to challenge the mononormativity of the world, and thinking about how to convey those ideas in a way that people can receive them through my writing and through this kind of thing.

So yeah, thanks for all being here. I'm also solo poly and a relationship anarchist, so I'm excited to talk about this topic. 

Elizabeth: Totally. Yeah, I guess that's the thing that I didn't mention, is that I definitely relate to relationship anarchy a lot.

And the other degree that I have is in political science. Relationship anarchy just hits on all of my nerdoms. So I just love it so much. I'm like, what? We wanna talk about all of it all together at the same time? 

Ro: Yeah. Love it. Love it. All right. I'm sure it'll come up today because we tend to nerd out about our various interests as it relates to the topic.

Elizabeth: It's so true.

Ro: I think it's your go to read today. The subject is fake it till you make it. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Oh my God. Okay, Cindy, wow, I we could nerd out hard together too. I'm super stoked about that. Sorry, for the listeners who are not here, someone put a comment that basically agreed with my nerdoms, and so that made me really glad.

Ro: Your nerdoms are correct. 

My n- 

Elizabeth: And as a Taurus, I love being right. All right, so principle number six, fake it till you make it. Sometimes it can feel like you need to be some complete superhuman to handle all the norm-breaking involved in choosing relationships that don't map to the norm. A great trick is the fake it till you make it strategy.

When you are feeling strong and inspired, think about how you would like to see yourself act. Transform that into some simple guidelines, and stick to them when things are rough. Talk to and seek support from others who challenge norms, and never reproach yourself when the norm pressure gets you into behavior you didn't wish for 

Lovely.

Ooh, ah Yeah, this is a really interesting section It feels different in some ways to what we've covered so far, 'cause it feels very practical and coachy, actually. 

It does feel a little practical and coachy. Yeah. 

Ro: The other points have been more theoretical or philosophical up till this point.

Not that they're devoid of practicality, but this is very directly, here's what you can do when trying to embrace this style of relating that is so different from the norm, and where you'll encounter criticism and confusion, and where you actually, you have to undo quite a lot of programming about how you relate and how you feel safe in relationships.

This is how you can manage all of that difficulty. 'Cause I think it can be difficult to practice relationship anarchy when we've been conditioned for a monogamous traditional way of relating and a hierarchical way of approaching all relationship types.

Elizabeth: Yeah, definitely.

And the thing that this bullet point brings up for me... I kinda switch off between bullet point and principle. 

Ro: It's okay. 

Elizabeth: I think about that way too much. I literally, when we're not recording, I think about that, how I say bullet point and principle. 

Ro: God, you're such a piece of shit, Elizabeth-

saying bullet point and principle. You've ruined everything. 

Elizabeth: Everything. Everything is all ruined. Start over. Start over. Start over. All right. You 

Ro: know we have to record from this first episode again. This 

Elizabeth: is, yeah, not helpful. Oh, man. Anyway, go on. I'll voiceover. I'll dub o- over in the in the editing.

Ro: What were you saying about this bullet principle? 

Elizabeth: But what it makes me think of is first of all, ontology. And ontology is the study of how we be, like ways of being in the world. Which is like the first coaches training that I ever did was very heavy in ontology, so no wonder that's what it makes me think of.

But inside of fake it till you make it, the second sentence is, "A great trick is the fake it till you make it strategy. When you're feeling strong and inspired, think about how you would like to see yourself act." So when we look at this from a coaching perspective, coaching and ontological perspective, what it makes me think of is the question: how would you like to be?

Whenever I explain this to people, Ro, I actually pull in transactional analysis. Like, You um, I know. I know. 

Ro: Oh my God, I'm so excited to hear you explain transactional analysis for a change. Okay, I'll keep quiet and I'll let you speak. 

Elizabeth: But one of the first transactional analysis distinctions, that you taught me was the hindsight, mid-sight, and foresight, right?

Ro: It's so funny, I wrote that in my notes today, so perfect. 

Elizabeth: Did you really? Amazing. So when we're thinking about, how do we want to be, we can look at that from a hindsight, mid-sight, and foresight perspective. So hindsight being, and I think this ties into the, " when you feel strong and inspired."

I take that to mean, like, when you're in a good level place. Like, when you're not acting from beating yourself up. When you're not acting from feeling guilty about something. When you're not still actively charged with anger or upset about something. But rather, like, when you've processed through things and when you are in a good, solid, mental space that you can look back and be like what is a way that I not just could have handled that, but what's a way that I could have been about that that would have made things better or easier or have a better outcome?

So what do I mean by how could I have been? What's a way of being? So ways of being could be, like, peaceful, strong, loving, caring, compassionate. It is the way that you are being about something that then lends to how you act, how you speak, the tone that you use, the decisions that you make, right?

So it goes all the way down to that source of who you are being. So you can look at it from a hindsight perspective in that way. You could also look at it from a mid-sight. So mid-sight is how you're being right now, right? Right now in this very moment. So you could ask yourself, "How am I being right now?"

At any moment you could have glance of self-awareness and just be like, "Okay, am I being how I want to be being right now?" Which is also one of the reasons why hindsight is so important because if you look at hindsight and you're like, if I would have been being more curious, I think that would have gone better," then when you're in that moment, you can be like, "Oh, yeah, that's right.

If I'm being more curious, maybe things would go better. So I'm gonna switch right now and become more curious. What's a good question that I could ask right now?" And then foresight is looking into the future. How do I want to be in the future? I'm gonna have a hard conversation today. I'm going to be talking to people who normally I don't agree with.

Like, when we're talking about norms and we're talking about breaking norms, what are the things that I'm gonna run into in my day-to-day life, in my week? Maybe the holidays are coming up. Like, how do I want to be in this future scenario? And then paint the picture for yourself so that you can live into that.

And so for me the fake it till you make it is, ah true. But also not true. You don't have to be... Like, I have, I guess I have an issue with the word fake. Yes. Because I think when thinking about it in this way, that's not fake, right? Like, That feels very authentic to me. It doesn't feel like I'm just...

you are making it up, but we're always making it up. We're always, we're making up life right now. We're making, this is, we're all, it's all made up. But fake being that it's not true to who you are, it's inauthentic, that's like my quarrel with the word fake. And I know what, I know the point.

I, I get it. I get the colloquialism. But I do have a problem with the word fake, because from that point of view of choosing who you get to be about something, that doesn't feel fake to me. That feels very authentic. 

Ro: Mm. It's more like be it till you become it- Ooh ... rather than fake it till you make it.

Elizabeth: I like be it until you become it way better than fake it till you make it. Okay. That, that feels more true to me. But- 

Ro: Relationship anarchy manifesto 3.0. 

Elizabeth: 3.0, yeah. 

Ro: So I agree. I think, thanks for laying out the hindsight, mid-sight, and foresight thing, 'cause that is exactly what I wrote down around this point, so it's amazing how we're so in sync.

And just for the listeners and the audience members here today, we do not talk about our talking points before we come on here. 

Elizabeth: We don't, no. 

Ro: So it's incredible that you thought the exact same thing. We've definitely been working together a long time. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ro: And so I think it is about thinking about how you'd like to be in the way that you said.

Be curious, be loving, those kinds of words. It can also be specific strategies and, um- What am I trying to say? Like a workflow, like a personal workflow, if this then that. I want to be someone who always asks before assuming, for example. Yeah. And you could wrap that up in being curious, but to be more precise about what that actually means, what do you do differently that could be something that you say, "Okay, last time I assumed before I asked questions, it didn't go well."

That's hindsight. Next time, "Ah, I'm assuming before asking questions." It's not going well right now. That's mid-sight. And foresight would be, every time I feel the pull to assume, I'm just gonna slow down maybe I'm gonna breathe or I'm gonna ground myself in some way, whatever works for you, and I'm gonna ask a question.

If it kills me, I will ask a fucking question before I assume. So that's how I heard that as well. Yeah. And I think these guidelines, maybe that's better than workflows when it comes to people. Guidelines can be anchors for us in rough moments. If we have a plan for how we want to address difficult moments with people, then we don't have to be doing thinking when we're feeling activated.

It's just gonna become more automatic. 

But to your point about fake it till you make it yeah, I had the same concern about that phrase. But I think what this point is driving at, even if we don't love the language of it, is that people are formed through repeated action. It's about how we form an identity.

And I think there might be people listening who think I am who I am. And people say that, right? People say, "You can't change me, it's just the way I am." And it's like the way you are is completely not fixed. Personality changes throughout life, the way you behave and think in situations changes throughout life.

To some extent there are things that are fixed. I'm not gonna suddenly become a psychopath unless I have a traumatic brain injury or something. But, there are loads of things that are changeable, and I think this principle allows for the idea that a version of you that is stronger and steadier than the version of you now already exists in you, and your task is to practice being that person until that just becomes who you are without thinking.

Yeah. So it's not about performance or fakeness or pretending, it's finding what is real for you that you can intentionally drive towards until you become that. 

Elizabeth: This is the analogy that I use in my head, and I've shared this with people before, and they've found it useful, so hopefully this will be useful for people listening.

But the analogy that I like to use is that think of the ways that you can be like keys on a piano. Everyone ha- every- if everyone is a piano

If everyone is a piano, we all have the same keys, right? We all have middle C, we all have high C we all have all the chords that you can play on the piano. But given your predisposition, your environment growing up, your whatever, you've only learned how to play certain songs on the piano.

And saying that you are fixed is like saying that you will never be able to learn new songs. You'll never be able to learn new ways of being, right? Where it's like you can learn all of... you can learn so many things on the piano. And also the other part about this that you mentioned is that yes, we all have a selfish part.

Every human being has a selfish part, has a selfish key. Every human being has a manipulative key. Every human being has a curiosity key, an empathetic key. Choice is being able to play the keys that you want to be able to play, but also recognizing that you have the other keys, too.

And I think why that is important is number one, compassion for yourself, because when you act like a shithead, which you're going to do, we all have, then you can be like, "Yeah," "I have those keys. That is true about me." Accepting those parts of you, right? Accepting "Yeah, that was a shitty move on my part.

I played the selfish key, I played the clingy key, and I played the manipulative key. I fucking did that." And then being able to clean that up, and learn how to apologize, and learn how to do better. But we're not gonna do that by thinking "I don't have those keys. It must be something else about me."

It's about ownership, right? And it also lends to compassion towards others as well. Instead of having it be a flaw that people are shitty sometimes, but rather just being compassionate. And not to say that we shouldn't hold people accountable. We should absolutely hold people accountable, but just understanding that we all have these traits, right?

And then in understanding that we all have these traits, then understanding the choice that we have in who we get to be in the world. It's like, I actually want to play the song on my piano that is more loving, and curious, and compassionate, and I wanna get better and better at playing that song.

Ro: Oh, I love that. I don't know if I have heard that analogy of yours before, so that's fun. We can still surprise each other even 

Elizabeth: after- Yay, we can still surprise each other. Also, in my head, it's like this, it's a, f- you know from Fantasia the older Fantasia, where it has the huge piano like in blue and like purple and orange, and it's whoo, all of that. That's the piano I'm thinking of. 

Ro: Nice. Yeah. No, I really like that analogy, and I have nothing to add that would be additional. It would just be repeating the same points that you're saying.

Yeah, but, what I'm taking and carrying is don't reproach yourself when you are pulled off course because- ... we all have access to these keys within us, and self-judgment and being harsh towards ourselves and feeling "Oh, I'm a fraud because I'm not perfect already," is not gonna actually help you figure out what got activated, what support do I need, what structure or understanding do I need.

It's not gonna keep you in problem-solving mode. It's gonna keep you in self-flagellation mode, which serves a purpose of you feeling like you've suffered enough for your wrongs, but it actually doesn't make anything better outside of you, yeah, accountability with compassion. So having said I'm not gonna add anything, I did.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And you added some beautiful things. I loved everything that you added. Also, before we move on to something else, I did have something else to say about the if-then thing. Yeah. If I do this, then that. Yeah. And I call them agreements with myself.

So like the first agreement that I made with myself when I started practicing polyamory in my early 20s was if I am asking this of my partners, then I must be okay with it being asked of me. If I am asking them to be okay with me, seeing other people, then I have to be okay with them seeing other people, right?

Yeah. And so like recognizing those things. So anyway, just an example of, like, the agreements with yourself. And I have a whole list of agreements with myself.

I have a note on my phone that has 18, 18 agreements with myself.

Ro: Conscious practice.

I like it. 'Cause I'm thinking if people might hear that and think mono/poly exists, people have po- people can be polyamorous and have partners who are monogamous, and yeah, that's true, but requiring them to be monogamous for you, that would be where it's no longer a relationship anarchist approach, I'd say.

Elizabeth: Yeah. If they don't ask that of me, then fine. That's fine. But if they do, then I have to be okay with that because I'm also asking it of them. 

Ro: Yes, exactly. It's not like you must be monogamous, but- ... you are allowed to be polyamorous. I'm just gonna go back to the text to make sure we're, like, not missing any important pieces of it, 'cause I think what we've been talking about a lot is the fake it till you make it and having simple guidelines and sticking to it.

I wanted to maybe talk about the sense that we need to be superhuman. And we have touched on that, but I just maybe, what do I have left over about that to say? That- I hear this about polyamory and about relationship anarchy. I don't know what your experience has been, but when I tell people about the way that I do relationships, they're like, "Oh my God, that is so hard.

Like, how could you possibly- ... survive your partners having that level of autonomy? It would freak me out." And so the assumption, if you're a relationship anarchist, and doing it healthily, not if you're, like, a shithead, like fuckboy who's claiming the label but not really practicing it. But the assumption is that you're unusually secure in yourself, and nothing ever bothers you, and you're so enlightened, and you're completely resilient to all emotional pain, and you're perfectly articulate in every situation, even when you're experiencing a lot of emotions, and you're just above ordinary human need for safety and security.

Which is not true. It's not at all true. I think we are not superhuman, and you don't need to be, and I think that's what this principle is saying, that just 'cause you're stepping outside of norms and doing something that's hard doesn't mean you have to be perfect at it. It's unsustainable to believe that you can reach that level of super humanity.

And I think essentially the point is you don't have to be perfect before you begin living in alignment with your values, and that is related to the point we were just making, that you can start being before you've become. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah, I, first of all, love that now we have the phrase, being before you become.

I'm just like, I am in love with that. I'm so happy- Thank you ... about that. Yeah. I actually 

Ro: didn't think of that before coming on, so it's something about being in this space that creativity is sparked. Yeah. So I appreciate you all for being here. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, that was a moment of brilliance on your part, in your many moments of brilliance, Ro.

Thanks. And I'm also very happy that we've now incorporated the term shithead. And we've used it multiple times in this episode. That also makes me very happy. 

 But yeah I think y- that you said that really well, and one of the things, I don't know if this falls into a category of pitfalls pitfalls to look out for, is that when you do start deconstructing things, and you do start to gain more levels of self-awareness, and you do, you f- you follow that thread, you start to pull on that thread of "Why do we have to be this way?

Why am I required to do that? Why can't I just follow my feelings? What if I expressed this about myself?" Like, when you start to go down this path it is very liberating. But the pitfall or possibly the shadow side of that is arrogance because we all have egos. Again my blue wavy piano in the sky.

We all have hubris, we all have egos, and that is definitely one of the shadow sides of learning more and questioning more and seeing where we've been conditioned for things is to be like, "Oh, now I am better than." Even in subtle ways, too. Even if you're not outright being a shithead about it there's still subtle ways.

I notice it with myself. I'm like, "Oh, I have that opinion about people because I actually... That's a part of my superiority." And recognizing that about yourself as well. So again, not being beyond reproach. I think that's such a great aspect of this principle is that it's yeah you can really take this on to the fullest extent.

You can fake it till you make it. But never reproach yourself. But never be beyond reproach. That's my thought about that, right? 'Cause I have a lot of compassion for myself, if I have those thoughts like, "Oh, yeah," like I have that opinion about people because I think that I'm better for doing this work, I can have that thought and not guilt myself about that but check myself about it. 

Be like, "Okay, how can I bring more compassion into this?" Even just having that awareness of yep, we're all people on our own journey, learning our own things in our own environments, right?

So yeah. 

Ro: Yeah, I think it's important. I think a lot of people might hear anarchy and think it means being in a chaotic situation and not having any responsibility. But as you've explained previously on the podcast the meaning of anarchy, and as hopefully a lot of people here know, but now they will know, this is good 'cause I'm gonna say it.

Anarchy doesn't mean chaos, it means that there is a lack of hierarchy, which means that there is no sacred ruler. We are all the rulers of our domain. And if we are all in charge, then I think that means we all have a lot of responsibility as well. It doesn't mean that we can just behave willy-nilly without consideration, and not be working to better ourselves and not be working to catch ourselves when we have these judgmental, superior thoughts or act in controlling ways or compare or shame others or whatever.

It actually means the opposite, that we bear all the responsibility for working on that. 

Because we're in charge. No one's coming to fix it. If we don't change, our relationships will suffer, and that's on us. So I don't say that. I don't know if that came across scary. I felt a little bit like, ooh, is that gonna come across mean?

But I hope it comes across more empowering. You're in charge. You can make it good as much as you can make it shit.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. It's a level of responsibility and accountability, and it's self-responsibility, but inside of relationships it's also being willing to hold other people accountable, and being willing to be held accountable.

Yeah. And that's again, my first rule of if I ask this of someone else, I have to be willing to be asked that of myself, right? And if I'm holding someone to account for something, I have to also be willing to be held account for that. Yeah. Having that, reciprocal relationship inside of that.

But the third sentence says, "Transform that into simple guidelines and stick to them even when things are rough." And this was one of the reasons why I made my agreements with myself. Here you go. Number 15, being vulnerable is being courageous. So I am historically someone who has seen vulnerability as weakness. It really wasn't until I started doing my coaches training that I really had that breakthrough of recognizing that I saw vulnerability as weakness, which was one of the reasons why it was really hard for me to be vulnerable.

And inside of that unpacking, and it's a continuous journey, vulnerability is fucking scary. And therefore very courageous. This line, "Transform that into simple guidelines and stick to them even when they are rough," there are times when I don't want to be vulnerable.

There's been times in the conversations that, Ro, you and I have had in the past, what, month, where I've been like, "Shit, I don't wanna say this. I don't wanna say this out loud." And where it's just okay, but I know that this is who I'm committed to be. This is how I want my relationships to be.

And just so everyone's clear Ro and I are not in a romantic or a sexual relationship. We're friends and we're colleagues. But relationship anarchy spans all relationships. But it's like this is how I want my relationships to go, this is how I want other people to be with me, and so I have to be willing to also take that on myself too, and hold myself to that as well.

Ro: And I think your way of writing things down seems to really work for you.

It helps you to keep referring back to what your ways of being are that you'd like to be rehearsing and in inverted commas, faking. Practicing into embodiment. And yeah, your vulnerability was very well received and needed, and it allowed me to be vulnerable too.

So, you know, The way we are also sets a precedent for how others are allowed to be and feel safe to be. Yeah. And I also think it's just totally normal for us to need reminders. And that's because there can be a gap between what you believe and what you embody. I think we haven't mentioned yet specifically nervous system conditioning, that some things may feel very dangerous and threatening for various reasons.

Maybe our personal history or our culture has taught us it is a danger. And once we face something that is outside of the norm, our nervous system habits can come online, and they might be stronger than the practice that we want to put into place or the agreements we've made with ourselves. So I don't think that this principle is saying, "This is easy.

Just, like, when you're feeling calm, just write some guidelines and just do it."

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ro: Until you make it it's a process.

Elizabeth: Yeah. It's a process. And I, I wrote that down, a long time ago too. And some of the agreements that I have with myself I've had for 15 years, and I still have to live into that and consider it and, move past things.

It is, it's all a process. 

Ro: Yeah. 

Oh, you know what I just thought as well, that this is something my partner has said to me that, and he's very wise. That, a lot of people will act from how they feel rather than how they want to be. And they might feel that's the right thing to do 'cause they feel it, so they should do it.

He frames it as giving an addict the thing that they're addicted to. If you have a impulse to behave a certain way but it does harm to you, it does harm to other people, to your relationships, then just acting on your impulses is not going to get you where you wanna be in your relationships.

But it's not about suppressing your feelings, it's about learning how to stay in alignment with what matters to you while holding your feelings. For a long time you might feel, as in your case, an urge to not be vulnerable, an urge to hide away and to not face the difficult conversations.

And for you to give in to that urge would be like an addict having their drug. It feels good in the moment 'cause you don't have to have a complex conversation. You don't have to bare your soul. You don't have to risk the other person coming back at you with something difficult. But long term, it's not gonna do you any good.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and I think that's also to take that a step further, it's also not making immediate meaning of the emotions that we're feeling. Because the meaning that we make off of our immediate reactions is not always based in reality 

... 

Elizabeth: or at least reality of the moment, right? If we get really angry about something, oftentimes the meaning that we're making is based off of how things have happened in the past, how we have learned that people react or respond to us.

So we're not actually seeing the moment for how it is. We're acting from a filter based off of our past experiences with this emotion. And so if we can slow down, take a pause, maybe even step away, and the phrasing that I use for this is turn towards that emotion. You're gonna get all my analogies today.

This is great. Imagining that emotion is a little kid. And maybe it's little you. I don't know. And it's like, wow I see that you're really angry right now. And then the other part about that is making the assumption that the emotion wants the best for you, but it just doesn't have all the information that it needs, because it is acting off of a past-based reaction.

I am oversimplifying this, by the way, y'all. There is so much more to this. So psychologists, please don't come at me. I am I'm simplifying this so much. I really do. I know that. But turning towards it and being like, "Why are you so angry?" "What's happening? What's coming up for you?"

And maybe it's because they got scared. There's a part of you that's like, "Oh, no, if this person says this thing to me, then that means that they don't love me, or they're gonna hurt me, or they're gonna abandon me," or whatever it is. And it's oh that makes a lot of sense why you would be scared and why you would mask that fear with anger.

That makes a lot of sense. I have a lot of compassion for you, buddy. And just yeah, turning towards that part of you. But then looking at from your, right now, present day, more conscious self, being like, "What actually is happening right here? What actually is going on right here?" And getting more information about that, right?

So turning towards your emotion, assuming that your emotions actually have your best intentions at heart, they just don't have all the information- And then coming from your conscious self around that. Because I do, I think that, a lot of the times people feel very justified by their emotions, which is arguably true.

People are very justified by their emotions. But yeah being able to not just be justified in your reactions to something, but rather coming from your conscious self and having that conversation with yourself, and then coming from choice, right? Coming from a response, coming from how you want to be about that scenario with a better understanding of your own internal working and what's there for you.

Ro: All of that maps so beautifully onto transactional analysis stuff- Yeah ... that if I were to just repeat it, it would, yeah, take a long time. But yeah, I think there's a lot of, speaking as someone who is in the therapeutic realm what you're saying has a lot of credence, and I don't think that...

I'm not coming at you. I think it was good. Yeah. Yeah. Great the child part of you, the archaic older part of you that has old beliefs, thoughts, and feelings and behaviors, is, is acting on an old protocol that's no longer relevant or appropriate and may have outcomes that are undesirable to you.

I'm trying to think of a specific- ... example rather than speaking in vagaries, because what is something that someone would struggle with? Maybe, going down to the basic ideas of relationship anarchy, someone might struggle with not being the hierarchical first in the partner's life, for example.

And maybe there's a part of them that has learned, "If I am not the most important, then I'm in danger. And then how do I make myself the most important? I lash out, and I act out, and I make sure that I take all the energy out of the room," or whatever. There are many ways that people might do it.

And that's totally a strategy that exists for a reason, and it's not appropriate to the here and now, and it's not gonna get you what you want in the here and now. That's the real thing, right? So listening to what that part of you wants and fears and believes can actually be the thing that allows it to go quiet.

'Cause again, using your analogy of a real child, if a child is afraid and you say, " stop being afraid," that's not gonna get them to stop yelling 'cause they're gonna be thinking "Well, I'm not heard. I need to yell louder." Or they might stop yelling, but they don't feel any better.

So thinking about treating your inner child as a real child, I think, is a really good way to go. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. 

Ro: Got a few minutes left, and I was just wondering if we could touch on the point of " talk to and seek support from others who challenge norms," 'cause We- ... haven't touched on 

Elizabeth: that really

we have the same brain today, Ro.

I was literally about to be like, "So should we move on to the last one?" Go for 

Ro: it. Yeah, I think. Yeah, what do I have to say on that? Yeah, the manifesto's advice is to seek support from others, and I think that's crucial. I think people often struggle with relationship anarchy, not because they're weak and unable to hold onto their principles, but because they're trying to resist a lot of pressure from a lot of different angles.

And if you're doing that in isolation without other people to talk to and to externalize your thoughts and have them mirrored back to you, then it's really hard to hold onto your frame. So I think community will give you language, it gives you perspective and reassurance, and yeah, I think that what I really want to say about this, is that having difficulties with challenging norms and difficulties with changing our behaviors as well, as we've been talking about a lot today, isn't proof that you've failed.

It's just a predictable response to living against the grain. It is probably gonna happen. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think it's so important. Talk to and seek support from others who challenge norms. And never reproach yourself when the norm pressure gets you into behavior you didn't wish for. Part of me is just like, yeah, fucking mic drop.

I don't know, like what else do I add to that?

Ro: What are we doing here today, if not that? 

Elizabeth: That's exactly, that is exactly what we're doing. And I think part of where my brain goes with this is the questions that I get asked around finding community and finding support.

And especially depending on, where you live. And people often when they talk to me about this, they're like, "Yeah, Elizabeth, you live in Seattle, and Seattle's kind of like a polyam, like Mecca or whatever." And I'm like, "Yeah, okay, that, sure. I'll give you that.

But also, I came out as polyamorous when I lived in Lawrence, Kansas, all right? So don't come at me." I moved to Seattle.

And one of the reasons why I moved to Seattle was, was definitely because I knew it would be more accepting. Also trying to be polyamorous in a small town is is not just hard because people don't know what the fuck you're talking about but also dating in a small town, dating pool equals small.

Dating in a small town and being polyamorous, dating pool, minuscule, tiny, 

Ro: nonexistent. Just maths. 

Elizabeth: And then when you do date all of them, then you've dated all of them. You're done. If you don't stay in long-term relationships with them, it's like, I've dated every single polyamorous person in Lawrence, Kansas, oh no.

That's not true. I have not done that. But I'm sure it was pretty close. 

Ro: I'm not anywhere near dating everyone in London, so I also have the privilege of being in a big metropolis.

But I think what we're talking about is not just dating pool, but community, right?

Community. Like having- Yeah ... having people that we're connected to get it. And I feel that my non overtly relationship anarchist friends can be part of that community. I know people who don't identify with that label who are in monogamous, traditional-looking relationships who still get it and can talk to me about it and reflect what I have to say.

So it doesn't mean finding people who already are further along their journey than you are, or even people who are at the same stage or have exactly the same labels. But that also is, of course, a really useful thing to have. And you were gonna say something about finding community and how difficult- 

Elizabeth: Yeah, and then I w- I went off on a...

I'm very tangent-y today. Surprise. But yeah, finding community is, number one, it's just knowing that it's going to start small. Un- Unless you do live in a place like Seattle where you can go to meetups where there are lots of different people, where it's just like you happen into a place and you're like, "Wow, we're all polyamorous.

That's cool." Which is. It's cool. But also in finding community doesn't mean that you're g- not going to like everyone in the community either, which is a different topic. Um, but But when you're building community, it takes time because it's relationship building. So I also want to set the expectation for finding support, finding community, that it is going to take time.

It is going to take effort. You are going to have to do multiple things, whether that be in person or online. I also know someone, you can look them up. I don't know if they're still a polyamorous coach, but they were. But their handle is Poly Coach Eliza and she is a polyamorous coach in, what was it, Louisiana or Arkansas or something like that.

And she started her own community. And when she tells the story about creating a polyamorous community in her area she was like, "Yeah, the first meetups that I had were just me and my two other partners. That was it for several months." "And then this other person started randomly showing up.

And then all of a sudden it was two." And it- but then all of a sudden, a year later, they have 15 people, right? So it's community and support is not going to happen overnight, and it is something that you really have to work at. And even if you have even if you have an abundance of people that you can connect with, it doesn't mean that you are going to connect with them.

Because even if you find other people who are like, "Oh yeah, for sure I'm polyamorous," you can have a couple conversation with them and be like, "Okay, but you're not polyamorous like I'm polyamorous.

I feel like we have a lot of very non-reconcilable differences in how we think about this, and how we practice it, and how we build our relationships, and how we treat other people." So it is, it is a process. Just because they are in your community doesn't mean they are your people.

So yeah. I just wanna set the expectation because I do, I think that sometimes when people come to me and ask me, like, how to build community, they just get upset that it's not going to happen right away. And yeah, it's not gonna happen right away. 

Ro: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm sorry, I was distracted by the great comments.

... And I'm, I think my brain is starting to move into Q&A mode. Yeah, 

Elizabeth: We're here. We have arrived. Any concluding remarks before we move into Q&A? 

Ro: No, I think we've covered everything that I had written in my notes pretty much. So I feel complete, and anything would be a repetition.

So anything that you want to say before we move on? 

Elizabeth: No, we covered all of my notes too. I'm sure that I could keep talking about things, but I think we're definitely into Q&A territory. Okay, so how a Q&A works is that you can come off of mute, and you can ask the question that you have verbally.

You can also ask a question in the chat. You can put that in the everyone chat if you want to, or if you want to keep it more anonymous, you can send you can send either Ro or myself a DM, and then we will read it anonymously for you. So three ways. Yeah. Verbally, in the everyone chat, or personal DM.

So what are your questions or comments about this bullet point of fake it till you make it?

Cindy: One of the things that I was thinking about your be it till you become it, because I also that fake it just it just does something to my soul. I can't say it. But you were talking about the be it till you become it and talking about being vulnerable and how a lot of us, once something happens, we don't want to be that.

And I don't know if y'all have read The Politics of Trauma, where they talk about the difference between creating a sense of safety versus living in security. What would you s- what would you advise people who are trying to move from building that wall by not being vulnerable, to being secure and also being vulnerable, how can they practice being it till they become it, in terms of trying to be vulnerable?

Ro: That's a really great and nuanced question. I've, my mind is suddenly buzzing with there are so many reasons why someone might struggle to be vulnerable. And the therapist in me is just like, "Oh, it's so personal and individual." But I'd say yeah, pacing is really important, 'cause I wouldn't want someone to become completely flooded emotionally and overwhelmed by being all the vulnerable all at once. So that's what I would say as a sort of generalized bit of advice.

But then for specific people, different types of support would be needed, different types of scaffolding, maybe different types of support, professional or personal. So yeah, taking it slow and not expecting yourself to go from zero to 100 is what I'd say.

Elizabeth: Are you speaking specifically for yourself or another person? 

Cindy: self. 

Elizabeth: Okay, got it. 'Cause it makes a difference because it's if you're talking about someone else, it's like, well, you can't do that for them. That's my answer.

Cindy: Yeah. No I would definitely not... We don't fix, we don't...

technically we're not here to fix anything. We're here to heal ourselves, not fix ourselves. But there's a lot of therapy speak in my brain. Have you noticed? Yeah. We work on healing ourselves. 

Elizabeth: Got it. Yeah, I got... Th- thank you. I appreciate the clarification, and I just wanted to, make sure.

First of all, just working with your own nervous system. When we talk about doing things that are outside of our comfort zone and we're, like, referring to our nervous system, there is the state in which your nervous system feels comfortable, there's your window of tolerance

and you're the only one who can really say what your window of tolerance is. But noticing how that feels in your body. I know for me, if I am, doing something scary, but it's still in my window of tolerance, that I can still regulate my breathing. I still have thoughts.

My thoughts might be like, "Yee," but I still have thoughts where I can be like, "Okay, I know that I wanna do this. I'm being conscious about this. I'm being aware of this. I'm choosing to do this." Those are still my the thoughts that are going through my head, right? And I also know in my experience that I can still see straight. If I am outside of my window of tolerance, it is actually physically hard for me to see. My vision gets blurry, right? And so it's like- Tunnel vision. Yeah ... tunnel vision, exactly. And so I know at that point that I need to back off, that I need to take a breather, that I need to come back to it.

Starting to notice the emotional signs, the physiological signs and the mental signs that you are inside of your window of tolerance in doing uncomfortable things. Yeah. 

Ro: Yeah, agree with all of that. And y- the signs for you will be different perhaps, but I resonated with that. I have that tunnel vision that comes up when I'm- ... outside of my window of tolerance. And I think when I start to think there's only one or two options going forward, I know I'm overwhelmed, 'cause the reality is there are always more than two options to go ahead.

... 

Ro: Start to think in disaster and catastrophe.

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ro: Yeah. And also to practice being vulnerable with people who are safe to receive it, not to just throw yourself and your vulnerability at people who you don't trust. That was something I was thinking about while Elizabeth was speaking too. I think we have a hand up in the audience.

Yeah ... are you wanting to ask a question, Dorthe? 

Dorthe: Yes.

I have recently found something out with my partner whi- who is now an ex-partner, because this was really complicated. So now I'm gonna take up a very naughty subject uh, love. I don't know if you've met this. I hadn't m- met it before, so I... maybe that was why it was difficult to navigate.

I found him and his wife very hierarchical, and then I found out that he actually sees love as a, how can you say that, like a one-dimensional thing. He didn't have a differentiation between love to friends, love to family, love to his child love to partners. It was the same kind of love to him. And to me, it was very different, so we spoke we got our our ways crossed many times due to this issue.

And even when I actually found out this was what was going on, I still couldn't navigate it, and I couldn't really navigate what, how that influenced this hierarchical feeling I got from him and his partner. Yeah. So have you met this kind of emotional approach in others, and have you any ideas to how one can navigate it?

Elizabeth: well, I'll answer this briefly 'cause I feel like I have a lot. Part of me is like, I need to answer this briefly so that I don't talk about it for the next 30 minutes. But yeah, I think that is where having again, I'm gonna refer them, refer to them as agreements with myself.

That's where having those agreements with yourself and how you want to be about things other, other terms here could be boundaries, but I think boundaries can get kind of muddled because of how we talk about boundaries or how we misunderstand boundaries. But basically having ways in or having things in relationships where it's like, "I will tolerate this," or, "I won't tolerate this," and being able to ha- hold those principles, to hold yourself to that as well.

And I know... listen, I know how fucking hard that is, okay? I am so ridiculously attracted to people sometimes that I'm just like, "I don't give a shit." Principles be damned, 

Dorthe: fair. Totally fair. 

Elizabeth: So I want you to know, can you see how red I'm getting right now? I want you to know how much I understand this on such a personal level.

But that's also why having these principles, having these agreements, having these boundaries, and also having a lot of past heartache, to be real, like a lot of past heartache where it's just like, damn, like I don't wanna go through that again. What if I actually stuck to my principles this time?

I don't know what would happen, Elizabeth. And then moving forward from there. So that's the shortest answer that I can give, I think. 

Ro: It's very practical and helpful. And yeah I resonate with a lot of that. I was also questioning whether there may be aromanticism in this situation, and that's very hard to contemplate when you don't experience love as not romantic. For some people, that just is the way that they experience it, so I was wondering that, that might just be such a different frame of reference that it's hard to imagine. It's like, how do I imagine what it's like to not be born with a nose, I can't imagine that because that's my life. And I have a partner actually who talks about, he's a relationship anarchist too, he talks about his relationships as being friends plus, and it's not in a hierarchical sense of oh, if we do more than what is typically considered a friendship, it's more important or more worthy of attention, but I think he also experiences love in that kind of way where it's like I can love all sorts of people, and everyone is a friend.

My partners are a friend, we just do different things together. That's been hard for me to understand sometimes 'cause that's not how I experience how I feel towards people so I can see what you're saying.

Dorthe: He says the same thing. He says when he tried to speak to people about what they call romantic love, he just hears friends with sex involved. Yeah. Then it becomes romantic in his mind because he looks at the actions. He doesn't see... I guess it's a being colorblind, right?

You don't see the difference that you don't see. So people can argue they're there, but if it looks the same to you, it still looks the same to you. 

Ro: Absolutely. That's a great analogy, yeah, because I don't know that what I see as orange is what you see as orange. The way that we see things can be so fundamentally different.

So that's a really nice way of thinking about it. On the subject of the couple's privilege you experienced, 'cause you were saying that, they say they're not hierarchical and yet they seem to be hierarchical. I think to what Elizabeth was saying my agreement with myself perhaps is that I'm gonna tell the people I care about what I really think.

And if what I really think is "You say you're not, hierarchical, but you're not, and these are the things I see," I can lovingly deliver that message in a way that holds them to account without shaming them. And I can also hold my own boundaries around what I'm willing to deal with and what I'm not.

So if I have that conversation and yet I don't see any change, I can say, "Okay it's actually not okay with me maybe to be in a hierarchical relationship." So my boundary is I can't be in this relationship, even if that's very painful. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Also on the note of attraction is that there are different types of attraction, and everyone experiences those types of attraction differently.

So depending on the modality that you look at for distinguishing attraction, there's anywhere between three to 15 types of attraction. However, I would argue that there's more than 15, although I think that- That would just, that, that gets it... for our humanness, capping it at 15 can be good.

But 

Dorthe: I use the proverb all models are wrong but some are useful, right? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Oh my, yeah. Oh my God. Yes. That is... What? What? How is this episode h- filled with the best nuggets? Oh my God. All models are wrong, but some are useful. Fuck yes. What the fuck? Yes. What a great way to say that.

Okay. 

Dorthe: I love that. I learned it in my professional work, and I have used it everywhere ever since. 

Elizabeth: Oh my God. So good. 

Dorthe: No, it is not mine. There is a guy out there, look him up. I never recall the name, but it works everywhere. 

Elizabeth: That's so good. That is so good. Okay, so different types of attraction I'm just gonna run through them really quick, is just being repelled is a type of attraction the opposite of attraction.

Having neutral attraction, so having zero attraction towards someone. Just being like, you look at a door, you look at the person, it's kinda same thing. And then platonic attraction, the attraction that you have for your friends. Sensual attraction, which is separate than sexual attraction, so wanting to have a physically close relationship with someone without it being sexual.

Emotional attraction, sexual attraction, romantic attraction, and then there's different types of attraction around transformational attraction and spiritual attraction. People that you're attracted to because you like to learn from them, because you see them as a guide, because you love their work, because you love their books, that type of attraction as well.

So understanding, like, how you are attracted to people differently and how other people are attracted differently, right? And then being able to have that type of conversation. Again it's just like you were talking about with being color blind, right? Everyone experiences attraction similarly to how we see color.

So being able to be like, "Oh," "this person just doesn't experience attraction in the way that I experience attraction," but then you have to decide whether or not that's workable for you.

Ro: Yeah. Are you getting what you need, whether you see things the same way or not? And also maybe seeing things the same way might be something that you need, so that's also okay. Yeah. 

Dorthe: It's just useful to get some perspective on this and not everybody can make...

if you talk to normies, normal girlfriends about this, the differentiations and the nuances that are in these kind of relationships that we have, it's difficult for them. Yeah, so it's nice to h- hear your nuances to it. It broadens the understanding a bit here. 

Ro: Oh, thanks. I'm glad.

Elizabeth: Oh my gosh. Thank you for giving me just the such joy with all of this.

That, that was so great. Thank you. Any other questions or any other points that you wanted to raise before we complete?

Ro: So somebody commenting who's on the aroace spectrum aromantic, asexual, saying that there can be desire f- born from another place even if you don't s- share the same attraction. Yeah. And you might even want the same thing but experience different attractions. Yes. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's also, a good reference book for a lot of this is The A to Z of Gender and Sexuality. By Morgan Lev Edward Holleb. Say that 10 times fast

But that is a really good reference and guide to some of this as well. And it's, again, it's more inside of definitions of things, but it is a good place to start because then you're starting to learn new words. And if you're learning new words, then you have a ability to start to you know, explore more inside of that.

So it's a good start off point.

All right, loves. Thank you so much for being here, for showing your lovely faces, for asking your wonderful questions for the lively conversation today.

Thank you for making me bright red and continuously sweat. Love that. Love that for me.

Anything that you want to say in closing, Ro? 

Ro: I echo what you said. I think I've learned stuff from what's been shared, so thanks for participating so enthusiastically and being willing to share your stories and your struggles with us, and it's been really fun. I love doing this with you, Elizabeth, and with you lovely audience members.

Thank you for coming. 

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ro: We hope you enjoyed this episode. 

Elizabeth: If you want to get in touch with us, go to the podcast description. You can share your feedback, suggest themes for future series, and find ways to work with us. 

Ro: If you liked this, leave us a five-star review with a comment. It really helps our sweet little baby of a podcast grow.

Elizabeth: And if you didn't like it, maybe don't leave a review. Just go complain to a friend. 

Ro: Thanks so much for listening. All the love.