Relationship Anarchy: Customize your commitments

The finale: relationship anarchy isn't anti-commitment, it's anti-default commitment. We close out the series and take your last questions on hierarchy, veto power, and giving generously.

Resource mentioned: The Relationship Anarchy Smörgåsbord by Maxx Hill

Work with Ro: I work with people who want to explore the patterns, relationships, and internal narratives that shape their lives - whether they’re looking for a focused piece of work or a longer process of change. My practice blends Transactional Analysis psychotherapy with integrative coaching, leaving room for both emotional depth and practical clarity. Get in touch via www.romoed.com.

Work with E: Already trained in working with queer and non-monogamous folks? LMBA helps coaches and healers grow a private practice that feels authentic and aligned. Blending inner work on your own nervous system and values with the practical business skills to build your client base. If you're ready to help more people who need exactly what you offer, enroll now at lovemasterycert.com. Next cohort starts September 2nd, 202

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Ro: Relationship anarchy is not anti-commitment. It's anti-default commitment. End of episode. Goodbye.

That's all I gotta say. Oh, love it. 'Cause it's I no, I will, we will talk about it, but there's a part of me that's kind of weary about the perception that relationship anarchy is for people who don't wanna make commitments and don't want to have structures.

Elizabeth: Welcome to All the Love, the podcast where we deep dive into all things queer and non-monogamous relationships. 

Ro: We're E and Ro, longtime practitioners in coaching, therapy, and education, with a focus on supporting humans in said relationships. 

Elizabeth: Every quarter, we pick a theme and host a series of live podcast recordings.

Ro: And here's one we made earlier. Hope that it speaks to you. All the love. 

Elizabeth: All the love. From E, that's me. 

Ro: And Ro, that's me. Okay, cute.

Elizabeth: Ro, tell us about yourself. 

Ro: Hello. My name is Ro Moëd.

I have degrees in political science and in... Oh, no, I got confused. Sorry, I started introducing Elizabeth there. Sorry. I have none of those things. So my name is actually Ro Moëd. I have a degree in English literature.

Are you okay? 

Elizabeth: That was... I don't know why I thought that was hilarious. But I'm, like, crying over here. That's funny. 

Aw. 

Ro: Aw. I like to make you laugh. So yeah, my name's Ro Moëd. Yeah. I have a degree in English literature. I'm also working on a degree in transactional analysis psychotherapy, and I am a writer, I'm a relationship coach.

I'm also in practice as a transactional analysis psychotherapist. I work with individuals and couples, and the groups that I tend to work with are polyamorous, relationship anarchist, all types of non-monogamy, kinky, neurodivergent, queer and those areas of identity tend to intersect, and so those are the groups that I tend to work with.

I am myself queer, solo polyamorous, relationship anarchist, neurodivergent. I'm really enjoying nerding out over this topic with you over the last few weeks. I feel like there's so much more we could say, but we're just sort of short on time each episode. And one more thing about me is that I used to be in adult education.

I was doing that for about 10 years, and I was also a teacher trainer, so I'm really interested in the art of education, the ways that you can- convey information to people in a way that they can actually integrate it and make use of it. So marrying all those things together today, I hope, and in my work in general.

Elizabeth: Yay. See, you always think that my, my intro is so impressive, but I always think your intro is so impressive. I'm like, "You're so cool, Ro. I love everything that you say and all the things you do. It's so good." 

Ro: Oh, thank you. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ro: Now impress us- 

Elizabeth: Yeah. ... 

Ro: with your resume. 

Elizabeth: Ah.

Ro: No pressure. 

Elizabeth: No pressure- No pressure. Hello. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Elizabeth Cunningham, and I have a degree in political science and also a degree in women, gender, and sexuality with an emphasis in religion, which means that I studied how power structures impact gender and sexuality which is a lot, and usually not in really great ways.

And then I worked at a domestic violence center for several years in community education and outreach. So basically what I did is I helped people understand educate people on what is domestic violence, the intersectionality of domestic violence and our identities and also how to get out of unhealthy or abusive relationships if you are in one or if someone else that you know is in one, and then why people do that?

Why are people abusive? And that's been my question inside of like why do people do things, and what can we do about that? So I wanted to be on the preventative side of that rather than the cleanup side of those things. So I switched to transformational life coaching.

Transformational life coaching is a modality that's really been helpful for me. So a lot of the times healers choose the modality that is most helpful for them. So I started training as a coach in 2016. I opened my own practice in 2017.

I have multiple certifications and all those things inside of that that I won't list off. But I've been working primarily with polyamorous folks and queer folks in my practice. I identify as polyamorous and queer. I am the L in the LGBTQIA alphabet mafia. And, you know, one of the things that you'd always talk about in your introduction, Ro, is the intersectionality of people in your demographic.

And I'm like, "Yeah, you know, me too." And I love working with all of... You know, a lot of my clients happen to be neurodiverse, or kinky, or queer, or polyamorous, or relationship anarchist, or a whole host of things under different gender, sexuality, relationship structure or erotic umbrellas.

And I love, love, love all of these topics. And I also created a certification and business development program specifically for queer and non-monogamous coaches so if that is something that you're interested in, you should talk to me about that. All right. Cool. That's me. 

Ro: And Elizabeth is an incredible coach, and so I'm sure is an incredible coaching instructor as well. And a brilliant business person as well, so can help people build their coaching businesses.

Elizabeth: I... Well, that's one of the things that I haven't been including in my introduction, 'cause it's not really as relevant to these episodes, but I'm also in an MBA program right now. 'Cause I really do also love nerding out on business and, like, how are we creating business structures such that we are able to really serve people?

And I've been asking myself a lot of questions like, how do you build business structures, or what kind of business or economic structures are the most equitable and actually have people get what they need? Because that's actually kind of the point of business. Not just to get things for profit, but rather, like, how do we actually get everybody to get what they need?

Because that's totally possible. And how can you do that with a business lens? So changing kind of the conversation around that. So yeah. So that's also things that I like to nerd out on slash am studying right now. 

Ro: Entrepreneur with an ethical framework, which is nice to see.

Elizabeth: Anarchy everywhere

yeah. 

Ro: I mean, I was just thinking how, you know, another reason why you're doing the MBA is probably because you're not busy enough. You just, you know, you ha- didn't have enough on your plate. You felt like- 

Elizabeth: No 

Ro: ... you know, "I'm not doing enough in my life. I'm not stressed enough." 

Elizabeth: No. 

Ro: "I'm gonna add some more education."

No. And,

Elizabeth: Obviously ... Because, like- Exactly ... when you're not, when you're not doing anything, you just go to grad school, right? That's what you do. 

Ro: Exactly. I'm just bored. I think I might do a five-year psychotherapy master's. Why not, you know? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Don't have anything else going on.

You know, not using all of this money that I have, you know? Yeah. This bounds of money. 

Ro: Yeah. I've just got way too much money. I think I want to spend 10 grand a year on education. So yeah, we're both sort of chronic over-committers, I think, to things, but it's because we're so enthusiastic about things.

So,

Elizabeth: It's so true, which is why we decided to do nine live podcasts in the month of April. 

Ro: When we were setting it up, that seemed like such a great idea, so feasible, so manageable. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, we were like, "Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, here we'll put it on the calendar right now. This is exactly what we're going to do.

Yeah, and it's gonna be so great. Oh, yeah, this week we're totally gonna record three episodes in one week. Why not? Why not do that?" 

Ro: Oh, yeah. We are, we're so sensible and able to regulate dopamine. So, yeah I've really... And none of that is to say that we haven't enjoyed doing this. I think doing it in this kind of intense way has been fun in a way because, like I was saying earlier, you see people turning up in the audience and you're like, "Oh, I recognize your name.

You've come five times already," or, "You've come every time." So doing that in a shorter amount of time also creates that sense of community, which is why we wanted to do this live in the first place. 

Elizabeth: Right. 

Ro: Yeah. So shall we get onto relationship anarchy? We're on the final principle of the Relationship Anarchy Manifesto written by Andie Nordgren today. I think is it my turn today to read the principle? 

Elizabeth: It's you.

Ro: So, "Customize your commitments. Life would not have much structure or meaning without joining together with other people to achieve things.

Constructing a life together, raising children, owning a house, or growing together through thick and thin. Such endeavors usually need lots of trust and commitment between people to work. Relationship anarchy is not about never committing to do anything. It's about designing your own commitments with the people around you and freeing them from norms dictating that certain types of commitments are a requirement for love to be real, or that some commitments, like raising children or moving in together, have to be driven by certain kinds of feelings.

Start from scratch and be explicit about what kinds of commitments you want to make with other people!" Exclamation point.

Elizabeth: Enthusiasm. 

Ro: I just love seeing an exclamation point in manifestos. 

Elizabeth: I know. 

Ro: So- Oh ... it reminded me of that Seinfeld episode. I won't go into it. Yeah. So, I love this. I think it's so important. Relationship anarchy is not anti-commitment. It's anti-default commitment. End of episode. Goodbye.

That's all I gotta say. Oh, love it. 'Cause it's I no, I will, we will talk about it, but there's a part of me that's kind of weary about the perception that relationship anarchy is for people who don't wanna make commitments and don't want to have structures. I'm like what's the verbal way of this ha- saying this hand gesture?

So, yeah what are your initial thoughts about that paragraph? I'll take a moment to settle myself. 

Elizabeth: No I'm equally as excited. And also I think this is the paragraph that people talk about most with relationship anarchy. And one of the reasons being because this idea of commitment in relationships is such a big deal in our cultural conversation.

It's like, oh, well, if you are a relationship anarchist or even if you're just non-monogamous or anything outside of hetero mono normativity then you are, like, afraid of commitment all of a sudden. Which is just a bunch of silliness because it's like we have collapsed the word commitment with monogamy, and in a lot of cases we've collapsed the word commitment with heterosexual relationships as well.

A lot of the time in you know, when people criticize queer relationships, it's like, "Oh, well, you just haven't found the right opposite sex person yet that you'll really fall in love with and commit to," and it's like, okay. That is not the case just because of someone's gender or gender identity.

But yeah there is this collapsing of what we're talking about when we mean commitment. And so when I use the word commitment what I'm meaning by that is that we have agreements together, that there is a level of we're in this together. And it is hard to put language around.

I agree with you, Ro. You know, you had your hand gesture. But it is like the emo- it's the emotional connection that you have with someone. It's the agreements that you have around that emotional connection. It's the understanding. 'Cause commitment is not just like a staple on the wall.

It's something that you build continuously over time, and commitments can wax and wane. Commitments can be taken away at any point in time. And I also think that's why people get really caught up in commitment because also in, romantic relationships specifically, People are really worried about not being chosen and someone leaving them. So there's this level of I need to have control over this other person so that I can keep this romantic relationship, so that I can be valued, so that I can be chosen, so that I'm not abandoned, so that I'm actually loved.

And so I think that there's a lot of fear around the default way is of operating around commitments. And so when we start to unpack that fear around that, it's r- well, first of all, it's really confronting. I just wanna say that like I completely understand why this is a really scary thing to do because releasing and relinquishing control and facing your demons about being loved and chosen and valued and not abandoned is like a really big fucking deal.

And so I don't want to underplay that, you know, downplay that. But when you can start to unpack those things and also recognize that you don't want to control other people, and then start to ask yourself the question of, "Well, what does commitment actually mean to me? What does it actually mean to be committed to another person?

What does that feel like? What does that sound like? What conversations are we having?" Then it can be really amazing. I'll just give an example. I know I'm saying a lot of things, but I'll give an example of Alec and I created a for those of you who don't know, Alec is a life partner of mine.

Y- yes, I have a platonic male life partner as a lesbian. That's a- that was on a different episode, too. But Alec and I answered this question years ago in a Instagram reel because someone had asked us that what does commitment actually look like in your relationship?

And one of the things that we said was that we just understand that we love each other and that we're here for each other, and it doesn't matter what our relationship structure is, that we know that we're gonna be here for each other. And that's what it means for us. That doesn't have to mean that's what commitment is for everyone.

It's customizing your commitments. 

Ro: Absolutely. I was listening, but I was also thinking, "Oh, it'd be interesting to pull up a definition of commitment."

Elizabeth: Okay. 

Ro: Did you do it? Because I was thinking what is my definition of it? Ah. And I found there's a website that has about 20 different ones, so it's probably not useful to go into that.

But I feel like I've written about this before, where I think that the angle I've taken is that for some people, commitment implies to the exclusion of other things. So if I'm committed to something, it means that I'm committed only to that thing. And that means excluding other things, for example, excluding sexual romantic relationships with others, or excluding even close relationships with others.

I prioritize this one thing. That's commitment. And for other people, commitment literally just means a promise or firm decision to do something. So, and you can promise or make a firm decision to do various things to be in a relationship, to build a life, to nurture a connection. And that's the view of commitment that I take, is kind of like you were saying we agree that we're in this together.

And as long as it works for both of us, and that may change, and that's part of the manifesto too, is embracing the ebb and flow of things. And yeah, I just, I really, I get so... I guess, what is the hand gesture? I've been trying to think about what that is too. I think it's just I'm angry. I'm angry about the fact that people say this about relationship anarchists, that because it's not monogamous, traditional form of commitment, that it's not commitment, that it's not real or meaningful or deep.

And this part of the manifesto is actually making the case for the opposite of, you know, don't commit. It's saying that a lot of the most meaningful things in life become possible through commitment. You must commit. You must make a promise or a firm decision to put energy towards something in order to reap the benefits of that thing, and you need to do it in conjunction with other people, in collaboration with other people.

So the point is really not about never committing, it's about making commitments that are chosen, that are made on purpose rather than just inherited from your social norms. You know, don't have default commitments, have custom commitments. And also, don't have commitments that are dictated by the type of relationship you're in.

Okay, it's a romantic relationship, so we make this kind of commitment; and we have a friendship, and that's that kind of commitment. It's saying you can really start from scratch and do whatever you want, you know? Have a family with your friend. Raise children together with a friend that you're not romantically or sexually involved with.

Why not? Like, how many people suffer because they're really trying to make a relationship work with someone where they are romantically attached, sexually involved, co-parent together, best friends, spend most of their time together? For some people, it really works, and for other people, they would be better off just not needing to have a romantic and sexual connection with the person they parent with.

That's just one example, and I'm not saying it doesn't ever work, What I am saying is that it can work really well the other way or a different way, and that we don't even contemplate these other possibilities because we have such a narrow view of what it means to commit, of what it means to build a life, and with whom we can do that.

So, get that off my chest. 

Elizabeth: No, I'm here for it. I feel the same way, Ro, you know? And I'm thinking about all of the examples in my life. I grew up in the Midwest, and so it is a, you know, a lot more traditional, a lot more conservative. And just thinking about all of the people who I know or who I'm adjacent to or y- you know, just the culture in general where you fall into this well, you have to get married and have kids.

I was talking to a friend of mine last night where she was saying how when she was 18 her whole main goal in life was to... Sh- she's also from the Midwest and lived in Texas for a really long time. And she was like, "Yeah, when I was 18 my whole goal was to get married and have kids.

And then as I got older and as I e- experienced more of the world and met more people, I realized that I had more options than that." And that's often what I hear from people. Either they're discovering that there's more options outside of just getting married and having kids even if that still looks monogamous.

But as people are learning about non-monogamy, it's just like, "Well, I didn't even know that this was an option," right? And so when we have this idea of, you know, this is what commitment looks like regardless of whether you are happy or not, 'cause that's the other aspect of this, I kind of clocked as a younger person.

I was just like, "I see all these people in my life who are married and have kids who are miserable." And I'm just like... and some people weren't. You know? Some people that I know who got married and have kids are not miserable. That's totally what they love and their life, and that's awesome.

But it seems like there's something missing here. And so my point of view came from this creation point of view. Like, What else can we create out of this, right? And not necessarily what else can we commit to. But I think when we come from the standpoint of looking at, okay, what's working here and what's not working here and then, questioning that.

So it's not even about like you said, it's not about not having commitments because committing to something is really awesome, and I think that's... I feel like I'm kind of talking around my point here. I apologize. But my point is it's not just commit to something or not commit to something.

It is look at what works, look at what doesn't work, discover how you feel, be creative about it, talk to other people about it, see it as a possibility, see other things as a possibility even if that is unclear. And then create commitments from there, because I think one of the things inside of this commitment or not commitment is that binary way of thinking, right?

It's like, well, commitment looks like monogamy, so therefore I don't want to commit to things. Or commitment looks like I'm gonna be miserable and tied down to something that I actually am gonna change my mind about later, so I'm not going to commit to anything, right? And so then we're kind of operating in this binary of I don't want this, so therefore I have to do this thing.

Ro: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: Or like, I want to commit to something, which means that I, you know, am going to just commit to something because I think that it's what I should commit to. Instead of trying to find this spectrum of what are the aspects of this that I want to commit to, and what are the aspects of it that I don't want to commit to?

And what does that look like with different people? 

Ro: Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's also what aspects of my life do other people want to commit to? Like widening the scope of the kinds of commitments you can receive, not just what you offer. And I think I, I'm saying that in response to what you were saying about people who got married and raised families, and those who were not fulfilled by that or overwhelmed by that.

I think what this part of the manifesto is suggesting is that the traditional understanding of commitment actually ends up being quite isolating and limiting to people. 

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. 

Ro: Because if you are taught that commitment means living together, getting married, merging your finances, having children, and prioritizing that one relationship above all others, and that is how you show that you're serious, and if you're not doing that then you're not serious, puts pressure on you to live a very specific type of life.

And I think that a lot of people who are speaking up about how overwhelming parenthood is are saying it from the angle of not "I don't like kids," or, "I don't love my kids," it's that they don't feel supported because they're living in this nuclear structure where they have very little community. And relationship anarchy leaves room for you to customize your community and say "I want more involvement from other people in my family life.

I don't want it to just be on my shoulders or my partner's shoulders to look after this whole unit of people. Can't we all give and take in various ways?" So you know, if we just follow the rules of how we're supposed to show seriousness in our relationships, we actually end up harming our own chances of fulfillment in many ways, because I don't think that human beings are really made to handle family life on their own with their partner.

We have this expression, it takes a village, and I don't see very many people living by that expression. And I can... You know, I'm saying this as someone who's child-free by choice. It's partly because I see how fucking hard it is to raise a family in the world today, and how much support would be needed, and how much support I know I may not have access to, you know, just with the way that my life is set up.

And also how much support others may not be willing to give because they're not relationship anarchists in their approach to things. So that's not the only reason. There are many reasons, you know, but that's part of the decision-making process for me. Just like the isolation of commitment as we currently understand it 

Elizabeth: Yeah.

No I agree with you, and it's also I grew up in a more communal like structure. And it was still like, you know, made up of nuclear family units, so it wasn't like fully communal necessarily. But even in having, you know, a lot help there's still like number one the societal structure that we have where it's just like, "Yeah we're in this community together, but we are a nuclear family," and so we're sharing resources as far as like time and energy like with babysitting or things like that, but it's not necessarily like mixing finances between families or something like that, right?

But there are ... And even inside of raising kids in more of a communal way like, I was, there's still a lot of struggle inside of that too. But I think this is also it's funny that I brought up my MBA today and what I've been thinking about inside of economics and commerce and what are the like business structures and economic structures that actually lend more towards a communal way of living or a shared resources way of living, and so like everyone can have what they need.

And so like when I'm thinking about this I'm also thinking about like giving economies, and like giving economies are not transactional. So it goes away from like the if I do this for you or I give you this product or this service, then you have to reciprocate that equally to me and right now immediately.

Where in giving economies it's more like I'm going to give you what you need because you need it, and I know that not, like not you necessarily will give that back to me, but the community will give that back to me because everyone is doing that, right? Everyone is giving what they can so that people get what they need.

And so it's like, yeah, I'm going to give you this healing service, and like maybe you specifically are not going to reciprocate that back to me, but someone else in the community, you know, grows food, has a sustainable garden, so I'm gonna eat because of that, right? And like someone else knows how to like, i- is like a plumber or electrician or, you know, whatever it is.

And so you're giving of like the resources that you have because you know you will be taken care of by the community. And I think that in looking at that type of economic structure- That we can also look at that as far as a communal relationship structure as well, where it's not transactional.

It's not "Oh, I'm giving this of you, and you have to fully reciprocate and equally reciprocate that back to me right now," or I'm going to keep track of that in some way. But rather that we're in this communal, you know, environment together, and I know that I will be taken care of by the community, so I can give the resources that I have to whoever needs it because I will be taken care of by the community, right?

And so, like, when I'm thinking about what we're talking about here and what does that mean inside of commitments, it's just you don't have to rely on or be constrained by just the commitments that you have with your romantic partnerships or even friendships for that matter because it's not a transactional relationship.

And transactional in the business sense, not transactional in the transactional analysis sense. I also have thought about that too, Ro, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, it's so funny that your area of study is called transactional analysis," Mm-hmm ... because when I think about transactions, it's totally different.

Ro: That's why it's a confusing name that hasn't caught on, so Right. It does need a bit of branding issue. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Yeah, but it's like it's not transactional like us right now or just this relationship, but rather this giving of I'm committed to this relationship, and I don't need to get everything that I need out of this one relationship, and I'm still committed to it.

I don't need to get everything that I need out of these other relationships. I don't even need to get everything that I need out of my whole community in general because there's adjacent communities, right? There's adjacent economies. There's adjacent structures to whatever it is that I need. And so I love talking about or thinking about relationship structures in these ways where it's just like what if we took all the pressure off of ourselves and the people in our relationships, and we didn't keep track of shit anymore, and it was just like you just give what you can when you can, and you don't expect that from that individual in return.

But rather you create a communal structure where you are taken care of in the ways that you need. 

Ro: Absolutely. Very well said. I'm just thinking, you know, we're living in such a time of profound scarcity that I understand why people cling onto things and cling onto people, because people, human beings are also resources to us in some way.

and I know you get that too, that there is a reason why this sort of more utopian way of approaching relationships is hard for people. I think it's utopian. That's my views. Maybe other f- people don't agree, but, Yeah ... it does, the scarcity I think causes us to cling onto things, and it's funny how actually if you loosen your hold on people and trust all the things we've been discussing over the course of the podcast episodes, if you trust and give the benefit of the doubt and give freely and are quick to forgive and all of these things, and you trust that other people will do that too, it actually, it really does work.

I'm living it. I am a relationship anarchist. I relate to people in this way. And my relationships are not massively radical. Like I'm not choosing to buy a house with a friend or raise a family with someone who's not my romantic partner. I'm not doing any of that sort of shaking up the type of relationship stuff that we've been talking about.

But there is that ebb and flow, that trust, the giving what you can, trusting that others give what they can, and just communicating as you go along. Shall we talk about this Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord? If I'm pronouncing that correctly. Smorg- smorgasbord? 

Elizabeth: Smorgasbord? i'll just say it ridiculously so then I can mask that I'm not saying it correctly.

Ro: Smorgasbord. 

 Yeah. It's, Is it Swedish, right? It's a Swedish word, I think. 

Elizabeth: That's a great question. I don't know. Smorgas- 

Ro: I'll let you look it up and we can cut this out, and then we'll make it sound like I'm just really knowledgeable and I just knew it Oh, 

Elizabeth: It is. It's Swedish.

Ro: Oh. Oh my God, I'm just so perfect.

Elizabeth: It's 

Ro: funny- Oh, that's funny ... 'cause 

Elizabeth: it's not how I feel. So- And now hold on. I'm gonna have the thing, I'm... I don't know if you can hear it if I say the, do the def- what is it? Pronunciation. Hold on. Smorgasbord. 

Ro: Oh. Did you hear that? Yeah, it's a very sexy voice. Yeah. Smorgasbord. So, well, y- people listening may know the common meaning of smorgasbord where it's just a selection of different foods that you can have, and also we use it to mean just a selection of different things; a variety of different things. So the Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord is this document, I forget the person who made it, I apologize. We'll put that into the podcast in the intro when we come to edit this. But it's this, essentially this idea that you have different plates of types of commitment that you can make to people, and you can take what works for you in each relationship.

You can discuss what kind of commitments do we wanna have? Do we wanna have emotional, or sexual, or practical, or financial domestic, creative, parental, caregiving or a combination of those things and many more? And for how long? And under what conditions? And with what meaning attached? And what does it actually look like?

That's the thing that the smorgasbord supports people to do, is to have those conversations where you really do start from scratch and figure out what your commitments are to each other and have clarity about it, rather than just relying on the relationship category to dictate the type of relationship you should have.

Elizabeth: I found the author is Max Hill. 

Ro: Oh, of course. Max Hill. Thanks, Max. So yeah, personalize your commitments and begin with the actual human beings involved and see what actually works for you. Anything else you wanna say on that? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. With the smorgasbord, I feel like for a lot of people, this is a tool that really works and is really helpful, but I have worked with people where this has felt really overwhelming it's like going to a buffet and being like, "I don't even, I don't even know.

I don't even know." It's you know, overwhelmed by options. So, for those people who feel overwhelmed by the smorgasbord I, I see you, I hear you, and where you can start is, how are you feeling right now? Like coming back to you. These outside tools are used best when you can look at, how does this apply to me and how I feel, rather than using it as s- another structure to try and get right.

Right? And so, if this is overwhelming for you or there's too many choices, just looking at, how do you feel right now, and what's been working for you? What hasn't been working for you? And what is the place that you want to start? So I'm thinking of one woman that I talked to in particular, where she had been going through a divorce.

She had a small kid. She was looking at, like, how do I actually want my relationships to be structured even though I, I'm not currently interested in a romantic relationship, but I am interested in community around like helping raise my kid? And so it was like, okay, great, so let's start there.

What really works for you inside of how you want to be supported in raising your kid? What has worked for you in the past? What would you like to see happen? And what hasn't worked for you? What's, what is something that you want to be on your boundary list or your no list? Right?

And so starting with a very specific relationship in mind or a specific circumstance in your life in mind, and looking at, how do you feel? What's working? What's not working? What would you like to be working? And moving from there. 

Ro: Yeah, all really useful questions. And I guess, yeah, that makes sense that it could be overwhelming for people, 'cause I just remember this meme and I, you know, it's famously really great to describe memes in an audio format.

But but it's very briefly it's just two images, one with a person looking gleeful and triumphant and hopeful and saying, "I am the author of my destiny." And then the next i- image is them looking hopeless and frightened and overwhelmed, "I am the author of my own destiny." That is something really exciting and can be amazing, and it can feel empowering, and it can also be like, "Oh my God, so that's...

It's all on me. I can't just do what I've been told. That's scary." And I think that part of the reason these- preconceived notions of what commitment m- means exist is because we benefit in some ways from having a shorthand. It takes the pressure off us to make decisions, and that's why these very commonplace understandings of what commitment mean have become so entrenched because it suits the human need for simplicity and to not have to think too much about these things.

And when, like I was saying earlier, when there's already a scarcity, already stressed, and the way that life is set up for many people is really overwhelming, if we can take the pressure off ourselves in one domain, then we'll take that option if we can. So I get why it could be overwhelming and why the vagueness around what commitment means exists.

Like we, "Oh, yeah, commitment. That's what it means." You don't have to think about it. You don't have to be precise. But I promise, you know, good things lie on the other side of the work that comes with thinking about the commitments you wanna make, and if you follow the kinds of questions that Elizabeth was just asking, then you can do it bit by bit.

It doesn't have to be something you figure out all at once right now. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, and I think that is really important to highlight is that, yeah it's not something to have figured out right now, and it's might not even be something to have, quote-unquote, "figured out" ever. But it's really just what are you dealing with currently and what is the next step forward that you want to take?

So just taking things one step at a time, and that's okay, especially when you're first starting out. And then what will happen is that you'll learn more things about yourself. You'll learn more things about what works and what doesn't work for you.

You'll pick up more information along the way and then apply that information, and then couple of years from now, you'll look back and you'll be like, "Wow I felt really lost and alone for a while there." And that is a totally normal thing to experience. It's a shitty thing to experience, but also totally normal.

But then in taking those small steps couple years from now you'll look back and you'll just be like, "Wow I know a lot more about myself now. I know a lot more about my relationships now. I have more structure put in place." I've been, you know, polyamorous for 15 years, and it really hasn't been until the past several years that I really feel like I know what type of relationship structures work really well.

For me. I've tried all sorts of different types of relationship structures over the years, and some of them have worked, some of them hasn't worked. And as I have continued to gather that information along the way where it's like, "Okay, that worked really well, I really like that. That was awesome for these reasons," or "Wow, that w- really didn't work, and this is why that didn't work."

And, you know, as I have gathered that information along the way I am able to practice polyamory, practice relationship anarchy in a way that is starting to really work for me. And it takes time. It takes a lo- it takes time. Mm-hmm. 

Ro: Yeah. There are so many moving parts as well, that when you make one form of commitment to someone, that may be what feels right for you in the moment, and then further down the line, not only do you know more about yourself, as you were saying, but your relationship with that person has deepened and changed.

And so the kinds of commitments you're willing to make with someone that you know more deeply and know more about might be different. And your circumstances might change. The amount of disposable time and income that you have might change, so that affects your commitment. So yeah, I think, you know, just l- taking it a step at a time and checking in with yourself.

I think that's one of the great gifts of relationship anarchy, that it requires you to have that connection to yourself. You have to be continually assessing, and I know that sounds exhausting to some people. That's kind of what we were just talking about. But I think it becomes second nature after a while to check in with yourself and have a connection to yourself.

It just takes time to establish that, in the same way that it takes time to establish a friendship with someone else. You know? When we met five years ago, we got on well, but we didn't know each other the way we do now. You know? We couldn't make the same kinds of comments to each other. We couldn't have the same kinds of conversations or make the same jokes, or we couldn't commit in the same ways that we do now.

You know? Now we're able to say, "I know I wanna work with you. I actually think you're great, and I wanna work with you for the foreseeable." I wouldn't have said that five years ago, 'cause that would've been crazy- Right ... 'cause I didn't know you. So, 

Elizabeth: When I DM'd you on Instagram and been like, been like- Oh.

"Oh my God, you're so cool. Let's work together for the next five years." Yeah, exactly. That is not what happened. 

Ro: And it... Exactly. So, so it takes time to establish relationships with other people. It takes time to establish a relationship with yourself. But after a certain amount of time, you're gonna know yourself more deeply, so you'll have faster resolution of problems that come up.

Elizabeth: Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about things that are applicable in my own life, and also just thinking about my clients over the years. And one of the things that in working with people for years and years on these types of things is that it really does go back to self-trust and discernment as well.

I think so much about commitment and what you want to commit to, what you don't want to commit to, what commitment means for you is that self-trust, the ability to discern, the ability to learn from your mistakes in the past, and also to not even see them as mistakes, but just as to see them as life lessons as well.

I know I've brought up non-judgment a lot on this podcast, but that's such a huge component, too. Because I have certainly made decisions in my life around relationships where I'm just like, man, if I didn't have such a practice of non-judgment, I would really fucking regret and I would beat myself up about that so much more that, not that I'm not doing that.

I am not this enlightened beam of light. I'm certainly beating myself up for decisions that I've made in the past. But having that practice of self-trust, discernment, non-judgment, compassion towards yourself, is that when you do make decisions that end up going poorly that you can come back from that, too, and learn from it and continue to grow and make better decisions, and thus create stronger relationships.

And I think that for me, and also I've seen that with my clients has been one of the reasons that we have created stronger relationships, commitments now than perhaps we did in the past because of, like, how you learn from things that happened that either went well or really didn't go well, too.

Ro: Indeed. Changing relationships, deescalating or ending them, it's really tough.

It always is. And I don't think it gets easy at any point. But that's what you need to be willing to do, I think, for relationships to be more honest and more alive. You know? People who end up staying in relationships that, whatever kind of relationship it may be, that just don't work for them because there's a sense of "Well, it's always been like this, and so I can't change it," or, "They expect it from me, and that's why I do it."

It's not really doing that person or the person that they're staying with any good, 'cause who wants to be with someone who's there just because they made a commitment and not because they chose it, you know? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. mic drop. Especially depending on how long you've been in a relationship with someone. What if you've been together with this person since you were, like, 18 or early 20s or something like that.

And it's just like, yeah, you are not the same human being that you were. Yeah. And that's also, you know, one of the things that I really love about not just relationship anarchy, but stepping outside of the norms of how we build relationships, is the flexibility of it. And we're coming up on time here, but I think that's the last thing that I wanna share about commitments, is that I don't see commitments as rigid, and I think that's also a misconception about commitments as well. It's like you commit to something, and now it, this is the way that it is.

It is now written in stone. It cannot be a different way. Where I see commitments as flexible. We're committing to each other in this way at this point in time, and if something changes, then both of us have the freedom and autonomy to, to change it or to come to each other and talk about it.

And that's why I always talk about Alec when I talk about stuff like this, because we've been changing our commitments in our relationship since we started. That was the foundation of our relationship. At this point in time in my life, am I trying to get into any type of relationship with a cis hetero dude?

No, but since Alec and I have been together for so long and we've created this amazing, committed but flexible relationship where we really are, like, here for each other no matter what. You know? So I don't know. Life can be weird. Just 

Ro: Life can be weird. Time can move quite fast. No. Yeah, it's... Well, I think just on that point of commitments being flexible, your story with Alec shows that doesn't mean that they're unstable. It just means that the form the commitment takes can change.

You can still say, "I'm committed to nurturing this connection with this person in the way that it works." So I don't want people to hear that and think, "That means if I have children with someone, they're allowed to just change their mind about that and just leave, and I just need to be okay with it because commitments are flexible."

It's you know, you can be pissed off about some things changing and there are things that you can commit to but just change the way in which you are committed or the specific nature of it. But that's like a huge point and I know that I've just dropped right at the end there.

Yeah. Which was sort of, kind of, an angle that I can imagine people's minds going to, 'cause I hear a lot of people who are understandably very heartbroken if they have been with their partner for 40 years and suddenly their partner is interested in polyamory because they never knew it existed as an option before.

They feel heartbroken and betrayed by that 'cause they say, "Well, we committed to a monogamous marriage." But- Yeah ... you know, life is very long, and things happen, and people learn things. And it's heartbreaking and tragic, but it is everyone's right to live their life to the fullest extent that they can causing as little harm as possible along the way.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Which doesn't mean that you won't cause harm. 

Ro: Mm-hmm. Any final thoughts on this topic? 

Elizabeth: I guess the last thought that I have about it is that if I were gonna write this bullet point, I would also put something in here around expectations and shifting expectations.

Because when we talk about... And a perfect example is what you just shared, Ro which is, when you make a commitment, you also create expectations, right? You're committing to something, and so therefore, the person you're committing to, you and the other person are now expecting things from the other person.

So recognizing that you have now created expectations for yourself, from yourself and also from the other person. And so then inside of that flexibility, you also need to account for the expectations that you have created, right? So, if you, using kids as an example you've committed to having kids with this person.

Now there is another human being. There are so many expectations now. There's the expectation that you are going to stay to raise this human being. There's the expectation that you're going to do that to a certain level of proficiency. There's so many expectations that you've created.

And so inside of commitments, it's also being clear about the expectations that you've created so that you can speak to those expectations. And why you wanna speak to them is so that, number one, if they need to be changed, you can change them. Be like, "I understand that in making this commitment, you expected me to do or be X, Y, Z, and you either can or cannot expect that of me."

And being really clear and explicit about that. And then also being able to make decisions based off of that too. 'Cause if we commit to having children together what are the expectations that we would have for one another? And can we meet those expectations, and can we agree upon or negotiate those expectations as well?

And then when you want to change them, using that language. "I know that you have expected this of me, but you can't expect that of me anymore because of X, Y, Z." And doing that in a compassionate way, 'cause I can hear people weaponizing this already.

This person has expected you to do this, to be this, because you made this commitment, and that's a really big fucking deal that you need to honor and be accountable for. And if you are going to change it, which you have a right to do, you still have to be accountable for the hurt, the harm, the inconvenience, the discomfort, the letdown, the upset that follows that.

You have to be accountable for the impact. You can change, and you can switch things up, and you also have to be accountable for the impact that you have.

Ro: Yeah, exactly. That's a very important distinction. Accountability still exists, even the commitment changes. Mm-hmm. And one other thing that feels really important to say is that, well, everything we've said about commitment applies to relationships with other independent adults.

When we're talking about our commitments and our responsibilities towards dependent or vulnerable people or animals, that's a different matter, I think. We can't apply the same logic and way of doing relationships to people where there's an inherent power imbalance. So, you know, just wanted to put that out there, too, just in case that wasn't clear.

Yeah. But yeah. So it's not about committing less, it's about committing more consciously. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. And anything else that you wanna say about that? Although, that was kind of a mic drop moment. 

Ro: That was my mic drop. Mic's been dropped. Broken. 

Elizabeth: Mic is dropped. Oh. The mic is no more. Poor mic. Oh. 

Ro: So we are gonna be taking questions and hopefully providing some answers now until around half past 7:00 UK time.

Yeah ... or half past the hour, wherever you are. 

Elizabeth: Wherever you are for the next 24 minutes. 

Ro: That's an easier way of saying it. Thank you.

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Ro: So yeah, hit us with your questions. Feel free to write them in the chat, if that's what you prefer to do. You can write to one of us directly, if that's more comfortable, or you can unmute and talk to us with your voice.

We, we love that, if you're willing to do it. Yeah, but whatever's comfortable. We just want your questions, and also your thoughts and commentary as well. You might just have things you think that you wanna say. Doesn't have to be a question for us necessarily.

No questions this time because this has just felt very validating of what I'm already practicing. Great. 

Elizabeth: Yay. 

Ro: Happy to hear it. 

Elizabeth: High 

Ro: five. High five. And also just a hitting you in the face high five. 

Steph: Virtual high fives slapping each other in the face. 

Ro: Yeah. Well done. Good 

Steph: job. Good job, you guys. 

Elizabeth: Oh, thank you.

Thank you. Yes.

Any other questions about... Oh, giving what you can and trust you will get what you need, are there a risk of ending in some kind of unhealthy dynamic hidden here? Yeah. So great point. For me, in order to have a structure that works like that, you have to build that structure, right? So, if you start to just operate that way...

I mean, you can start to operate that way. And it will take time and conversations with the people in your life to be able to reliably have that structure with other people. It's not necessarily just going to happen on its own, So if you are giving and, you know, you're a very generous person and you're giving under the understanding that it will be reciprocated in some way, however, you have not communicated that, you haven't built that structure, there's no agreement in your community around that, then you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment because most people are operating in default, which our current default is transactional.

So if you do something for me, I will do something for you. If you're giving of yourself generously, that's on you. That's not on me or us. That's your individual decision. So that's kind of like default right now. So if you want to build a communal structure where you have more of a giving economy, then you need to have conversations around creating that giving eco- and I'm calling it a giving economy but there are other terms for it.

You can also look up indigenous practices around commerce, and that is also a good foundation. Specifically within tribes. So not commerce from tribe to tribe, but commerce within a tribe is a way to look at structures of giving economies that really work. But yeah, you need to be able to communicate that, have people agree to that, have people buy in to that structure in order for that to work.

And then if people are agreeing to that, then you also still need to hold people accountable if it's not working. You need to be able to have those conversations. So it's not like this is just a utopian, perfect structure that, it, you know, is just immediately going to work.

People are still going to people, and s- you're still going to have to hold people accountable and have hard conversations around "Okay, this is working. This is not working," especially when we are creating these types of structures when we have never been given unless you grew up on a reservation that practices this.

But most people have never been exposed to what this actually looks like or what it feels like or how it can work. So you are gonna be building it from scratch, and so there is going to be bumps and bruises along the way.

Ro: Yeah. I don't know if I have that much to add. I think the way you put it is really good. It's like you can't just be generous without any discernment. It's not just be generous and just close your eyes and trust that you will receive, you know? I think to, to a certain extent, to be happy and healthy in relationship anarchy, we need to be working on our emotional literacy, on our self-awareness, on our awareness of what's going on between us and other people, of how it feels when our boundaries are crossed on our communication, our ability to hold others accountable, our just general ability to be reflective about what goes on in the relationships that we're in and how we feel within them.

And if we're not remaining alert to that, then we could get taken advantage of. So in a way, making things less transactional and more free means you have to up your alertness to all those things, which is a kind of gift. That invitation is also work, and it's a journey, you know?

I'm not saying that I'm perfectly emotionally literate myself. It's a spectrum or a sort of a trajectory that you can be on. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. There is no relational or communal structure that is not going to involve work.

Ro: Indeed. Thank you for your question. Hope it helped

Elizabeth: Any other questions or comments about commitment, about anything that we've talked about today? 

Participant 1: I have a question, but I'm a really slow typer.

Elizabeth: I got it. Let's hear it. 

Participant 1: Okay. So, I've been polyamorous about four years and seem to be dating people who are about hierarchy. So my, the partner that I've been with for four years is married, hierarchical, and they have a veto agreement in place. And I have been affected by this already in the past, and I'm struggling with a lack of accountability around that and trying to make customized agreements for this relationship that feel like they count for something.

And yeah, struggling a lot with that right now and struggling with a very easily activated abandonment trauma. Especially when people that I've been dating decide that someone else is gonna be their primary or that they're considering going back to monogamy, things like this. So I wonder if you have any insights for this circumstance.

Ro: It sounds really difficult. I can hear the emotion in your voice as you talk about it as well, so thank you. You're so brave for asking the question. So

Yeah, the relationships that we remain in or that we build and we choose can reinforce the fears that we have or the feelings we have about ourselves, or they can help us challenge them. What I'm hearing in the question you were asking is that being in relationships where there's hierarchy may put you at risk of reinforcing feelings that you can easily be abandoned, that someone else can choose so that someone you love can choose someone else over you.

So it's a potentially risky situation. I guess, are you asking how you can protect yourself or how to negotiate with people? Or can you be more precise about exactly what it is you're asking? Unless, Elizabeth, you already have some idea and I've missed it, because that's possible too.

Elizabeth: No, I I have a similar question. I'm curious about the same thing, and also just want to second what Ro said, Sophia, I hear the emotion in your voice and how difficult the situation is, and my heart is with you. And you got a lot of hearts from the other people here too.

We're with you here, so thanks for being really brave and vulnerable and sharing right now.

Participant 1: I don't know exactly what my question is because I really am struggling. I guess I'm looking for a pathway forward how I can remain in relationship with people who are choosing others over me or, w- what is a, I don't know, a reasonable type of prioritization one can ask for in such circumstances and structures that is flexible enough to adapt to, I don't know, partners need to step back from commitments or close or focus all of their attention on another partner or things like this.

Other things that I can ask for that are, big enough for me and not too big for them That sounds so sad. I'm sorry. 

Elizabeth: No, that's okay. I mean, I think I can speak for both Ro and I, but it's just I hear the the love and the care that you have for these people and this relationship, and it's clear that you really want this to work, and you're looking for ways in which it could.

You're in the process of turning over the stones right now, And so I, I hear that, and that's really... that's hard, and it's also really commendable. And my question back to you 'cause of what I'm also hearing is that, you know, you're looking for what's reasonable. That was the question.

What is reasonable? And I would change that question slightly and pose it back to you, which is, what is it that you actually want? Not necessarily given the circumstances of this relationship particularly but what is it that you actually want in relationships or romantic relationship?

What is it that it would actually look like, or what would you be getting, or what would be provided for you in relationships that would have it feel good for you, that would have you feel seen and taken care of? Because it's also important to know what you're asking of your partners and what your non-negotiables are, too, 'cause I hear you negotiating a lot, and it also sounds like you're negotiating to the detriment of yourself in some ways.

And so my question back to you would be, what are some of your non-negotiables? Oh, hello, puppy.

The puppy is like, "My non-negotiable is you paying attention to me right now." 

Participant 1: A random puppy in a parking lot. 

Elizabeth: That's 

Ro: amazing. Well, the puppy knew that you needed some love. Yeah ... I second everything that you asked there, Elizabeth, and I'm thinking, you know, Sophia, you don't have to answer the question now live in front of other people if that feels a lot, especially, you know, on a podcast.

Yeah ... but I wrote down the word non-negotiable as well to remind me, so it's, I'm really like, you know, we're very much on the same wavelength here, that it's okay to have some things that you just need and cannot have a relationship without that, or there are some things- Mm-hmm ... that just are a hard line for you.

It's a no, I won't be in relationship, for example, with someone who has a partner who has veto power. That's a very common boundary for many people, and you may or may not choose to have that boundary yourself, but I just, for what it's worth, if you need permission from anyone, you're allowed to have that boundary.

You're allowed to have any boundary that keeps you well and safe and that allows you to thrive. 

Participant 1: Yeah. I think my issue is trying to stay in a already existing relationship that has turned out to have all of these-

actually non-negotiable, like boundary breakers for me trying to transform it from that detrimental position 

Ro: Yeah. 

Participant 1: Yeah. 

Ro: Just so you know- But yeah ... others are sort of resonating with what you're sharing in the comments. Someone's saying- That's good ... "I have a very hard time figuring out my non-negotiables and how to not negotiate in detriment to myself.

And even within RA and non-hierarchy, you can end up with feelings of being replaced when commitments change. I'm going through it as well right now." And then there's a little heart emoji with a bandage on it. So a lot of people are relating to what you're going through.

You're absolutely not alone with it. And yeah, once you're in a relationship and you're attached to someone and they mean something to you, and you've put time and effort into building something, and then you find out, "Oh, okay, actually there was something I didn't know that actually feels like a non-negotiable for me," it's a really hard thing to face. And it's such a personal thing as to like whether you reconsider, is it negotiable or non-negotiable? Or do you decide, no, actually, that really is a hard line for me. And you are allowed to go either way.

Elizabeth: Yeah, going back to earlier about looking at what works and looking at what doesn't work.

And so maybe instead of listing it as a non-negotiable, maybe you list it as, "Here are the things that are working for me in this relationship right now, and here are the things that are not working for me in this relationship right now," or not working as well as you would like it to, right? There's also that kind of third gray area category where it's just like, it's working, but it's not working.

Because then when you look at, okay, this is not working, so kind of taking that list, these are the things that are not working, it's like, why isn't it working? Or what would have it actually work for me? And then those are things that you can also communicate. And then, the people who you're with can say "Yes, I can meet you there," or, "No, I can't meet you there."

And then If they can't, then it's also like you have to make some hard decisions based off of that too.

Participant 1: Thank you so much. 

I think that's gonna be really helpful. 

Ro: Okay, you're welcome. I'm glad. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Also have someone who says, "Not a question, just wanted to share that I've struggled with a similar situation." What helped me was realizing my non-negotiable/commitments to myself and holding myself accountable to practice it in relationships.

Easier said than done, of course, but it's worth doing to push through the fear and anxiety." I completely agree with that. I have a whole list of agreements with myself in relationships. Possible non-negotiable I will not be in a relationship with people who don't or won't consider how their other relationships affect me and our relationship.

Ro: Yes, absolutely. I think that's a good one.

Elizabeth: Also for people who didn't see the video, I giggled because of the finger gestures, not because of the commentary. I just realized that might have been an inappropriate giggle if you didn't see the finger gestures. 

Ro: Yeah. I think also just a thought I had is that, you know, making these decisions about what I, what is working and what isn't working in our relationship, there can be resistance to acknowledging things that aren't working because we so want it to work, you know?

So that's very powerful, and I'm not saying any of this to suggest that it's easy or to trivialize, but I will say there are people in the world who will meet all of the requirements without having to work so hard, you know? They will just meet those requirements. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. It's, it is, that is very true. Thank you for saying that, Ro, 'cause that was actually something that I was thinking while Sophia was sharing, and yeah it's not to trivialize anything, and it's not to be like, "Well, just find the right person." That's not the sentiment that I want to convey.

But also, there are absolutely people who it is, they're just like, "Yeah I agree with all of that. I, that is exactly how I wanna be in relationships, too. That's how I show up. That's how I feel. That's..." You know, there are people who just match you in far better ways than some other people do, and it doesn't mean anything about the people who don't match you.

It just means that you just do relationships differently. 

Ro: Right. And some people may not match immediately, and there's work that can be done, that is also true. And sometimes there isn't work that can be done, and that is also true. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, which is also where the non-negotiables come in, because it's just like, okay, or are we willing to negotiate here?

Okay, no? All right, well then. And yeah sometimes you do have to walk away from things, and that's really hard. And I hope, Sophia, that you can, you know, figure that out in a way that really does work for everyone. 

Ro: Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your question. A lot of people were resonating with it, so it was definitely a great thing that you did that, because probably a lot of people had the same question on their mind.

Yeah. Think we're gonna have to end there, everyone. 

Elizabeth: I know. I was just looking at the time. I was like, "Oh my God, it's over." Okay. 

Ro: We'll be back. 

Elizabeth: We will. 

Ro: You can't get rid of us. Don't worry. 

Elizabeth: Nope. Nope. No, you can't. Muah-ha-ha. Yeah, thank you all. Thank you all so, so, so, so much. Oh my God, look at all of these emoji things happening. This is- Yeah ... i've never seen that explosion one before. That was so cool. Maybe if 

Ro: more than one person does it at a time, it's "Ooh, there's a lot of love in here. We gotta explode this heart."

Yeah. Thank you all so much. 

Elizabeth: Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Ro, is there anything that you wanna say to be complete just about the series, not just this episode? 

Ro: To be complete, I want to acknowledge that this isn't complete. I, I feel so constrained by the amount of time we have for each one, so I want to really encourage people who listen to this and who think, "Hold on, you talked about this, but you didn't talk about that," or, "I have a question about something to do with this point on the manifesto that never came up," please reach out to us.

Ask us your questions. Tell us the things we missed. Maybe we can come back to it someday. We're gonna have more podcast episodes than these nine. So, you know, if there's anything that you feel would be useful to return to, we wanna hear about it. And yeah, and I'm sure we will revisit this topic in some shape or form in the future.

Elizabeth: The podcast website is allthelovepod.com.

And I second Ro what you said. There is just so, so, so much more that we could've said, could've talked about, but having 45 minutes to talk about each bullet point, we covered a lot, but there is so much more that we could say. So yeah, please give us your questions, comments, yeah, but's, what if's, how 'bout, you know, all of it.

We want all of it, and then we're gonna continue making content and podcast episodes together. So, maybe eventually we'll talk about all of it, but I don't know. That'd be kinda boring. Let's just keep talking about it. Let's continue to uncover things. 

Ro: Yeah. Oh, can I say one more thing? 

Elizabeth: No, you're not allowed.

Ro: If you 

Elizabeth: permit me. No. 

Ro: Okay. No. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely no. You're cut off. Yes. What are you, what is it? Tell us. 

Ro: I just wanted to say thank you so much. I know we've already said it, but just to be really clear, this was the first time we have ever done an online podcast live event like this, and- I'm so grateful to all of you who have shown up, because we sent out emails not knowing what the reaction would be.

We hoped it would be positive, but it's been really overwhelming, and I really feel so supported and honored that you wanted to come and listen to us talk about stuff, and that some of you come many times. So it means a huge amount, and it's made this experience so fulfilling for both of us. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for that.

Elizabeth: Yeah. I completely, fully, and wholly second that as well. It has been just wonderful. I'm so, so, so grateful for all of you for showing up, for supporting. Even the people who, you know, signed up but then didn't show up you know, life happens, life gets in the way. We totally get it. But just to see your signups was even just so exciting.

And thank you everyone for you know, showing up as well and bringing your questions and your heart, and just ugh, this has been so, so wonderful. So yeah I second that completely. Just overwhelmed with gratitude for this whole experience. It's been so cool.

Ro: Any final words, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth: Nope, that's it. I love you all. I love you. We're all in this together. And remember that.

Yeah. All right. All right, loves. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you. 

Ro: All the love. 

Elizabeth: All the love. All the love.

Ro: We hope you enjoyed this episode.

Elizabeth: If you want to get in touch with us, go to the podcast description. You can share your feedback, suggest themes for future series, and find ways to work with us. 

Ro: If you liked this, leave us a five-star review with a comment. It really helps our sweet little baby of a podcast grow.

Elizabeth: And if you didn't like it, maybe don't leave a review. Just go complain to a friend. 

Ro: Thanks so much for listening. All the love.